Podcast Episode 105

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Is Tile Drainage Decreasing, Or Do Numbers Sometimes Lie?

Is Tile Drainage Decreasing, Or Do Numbers Sometimes Lie?

Episode 105 | 21 min

With Guest:

Dr. Ehsan Ghane, Assistant Professor of Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering of Michigan State University

On this episode of The Water Table podcast, Jamie sits down with Dr. Ehsan Ghane of Michigan State University to discuss recent US Census numbers that are reporting a surprising decrease in acreage with tile drainage across the Midwest. Are the numbers accurate, or is there more at play? And, while we’re on the subject of numbers, learn why long-term is better for agricultural research. Don’t miss this episode!

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We’re trying to move away from a one-size-fits-all solution, because each farm is different.

— Dr. Ehsan Ghane

Guest Bio

Dr. Ehsan Ghane teaches Biosystems and Agricultural Engineering at Michigan State University, along with performing extensive research into drainage pipe pattern and style, and how those things play into increased water quality and crop yield. He holds a Ph.D. from Ohio State University and spent time at the University of Minnesota in the department of Soil, Water and Climate.

Host (00:00):

Join me on The Water Table, as I speak with biosystems and agricultural engineering professor Ehsan Ghane from Michigan State University. Well, welcome back to The Water Table podcast. Again, a guest I’ve had before, but I have Ehsan Ghane today. He is a professor at Michigan State University in the Biosystems and Agricultural engineering area of the college. And welcome to the podcast. I like to read my notes off of my cell phone and that doesn’t work so well when you’re getting a call as you’re reading them. But Dr. Ghane, welcome back to the podcast. Excited to talk to you again.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (00:50):

I’m glad to be here. It’s a pleasure to be on the podcast.

Host (00:53):

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. So one of the things we’ve talked about in the past when you and I have spoke on The Water Table` was about pipe perforations and some of the studies that you’ve done in the past on pipe perforations and different products out there. Let’s talk a little bit about that and give me any updates on anything you have done, or thinking about to continue that project.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (01:22):

Yep. So we talked a little bit about pipe perforation styles, as we call it. Basically the main two pipe properties we’re talking about is number of rows of those perforations. Usually there are four rows or eight rows. Another one that we talked about was having sand slot versus a knitted sock wrap pipe. That’s what basically those two are the general things we talked about last time, and one of the drainage contractors I work with in Michigan, Michigan Leica, we’re looking into seeing if we could put the sock wrap pipe in a field, and then compare it with a sand slot pipe and a regular turf, just so we can do a field, real world experiment. Our experiment was in the laboratory, which still represents the field. It’s a lot easier in the lab than the field. So that’s something we’re slowly, gradually making progress towards.

Host (02:27):

Sure. Well, it’ll be fun to continue to stay in touch on that and get some information as time goes on. Is that something that you feel like you will have any results by the end of 2024, or is it a longer project than that?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (02:43):

Typically all water projects take a long time, especially if it’s field work. So by the end of hopefully 2025, then that would be more confidence in that, yeah.

Host (02:56):

Sure, sure. And that’s just in one field right now, correct?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (03:01):

Yes. It’s just one field, kind of a low cost, because we don’t really have a grant to do that. We’re just doing, because we are really passionate about finding, seeing those things from close, just for fun.

Host (03:15):

Sure, sure. What some people do for fun. I’m glad that that’s fun to you, because it’s great results for us. So thank you. Really what I want to talk to you about today and have you on the podcast was about a paper you wrote, and some findings, and kind of how you came about them. But they were a little bit surprising to me and they were surprising to you too, because that was in the heading of the paper, just around the timeframe of 2012 to 2017, and then ’17 to ’22 on the amount of subsurface drainage that has been done in particular states throughout the Midwest. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (04:00):

Yeah, so this is something that I had already had an idea that I wanted to write about, as soon as USDA had released their report. And my expectation was, when I read that it’s going to say, “Oh, okay. There was like 38% increase, 35 to 40% for Michigan,” because the previous period from 2012 to 2017, there was about 38% for Michigan.

(04:28):

I thought, oh, it’s going to be about roughly about the same. Then the numbers came back and I was shocked. I was actually working on double checking, am I doing this correctly? And it was correct. We double checked and we found a surprising trend as you mentioned, that some of the states showed a decrease and that, I mean that’s a surprising and shocking frankly, to be honest with you, because you can’t really, if you get statistics from the field for a state, you can’t really just go in and rip tile out of the ground. It’s already in. More is going in, how is it possible? So we are shocked. Yes.

Host (05:08):

And how did they gather that data, do you know? And then, obviously you just take the data from USDA, but how do they gather that?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (05:19):

So USDA, every five years they do the survey, and because this one was during the COVID, and then they didn’t get much response back from the farmers to fill out the census form, they extended the deadline. That’s why it’s coming out a year later in 2024. Usually it should have been released in 2023. So they tried to ask more. They gave it extension of the deadline. So some of the results, as I published on the news article and I wrote that there were variations across the state, but generally things were very surprising. For example, in our state of Michigan, we had minus 4% it went down, which just does not make sense. I mean, Ohio, there are other states too, like Ohio went down to a minus 6%. I have the numbers. Indiana minus eight, Illinois minus seven. I can keep going, but so the numbers are surprising.

Host (06:25):

And just to be clear, that was you’re looking at the increase, the 2012 to 2017 increase, was that an increase over the previous five years and then the same, or how did they do that?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (06:41):

Absolutely. So from 2012 to 2017, there was overall an increase in acreage of tile drainage in the Midwest. I mean, I can give you an example. Let’s say in Iowa, 2012 to 2017 was a 12% increase in acreage of tile drains. But that was 2012 to 2017. And then when you look at the next period, which is 2017 to 2022, in Iowa was minus eight as an example, and others is following the same trend, it goes down and it is surprising. We try to dig into what is happening. I can only guess, I don’t have a definite answer, because this is something that NASS has compiled and released. And so, one of the things that they have that gives us a clue is this parameter, they call it coefficient of variation. So they say if this is a higher number, it means that there’s more uncertainty, or less confidence.

(07:50):

And then, when I looked at those, I’m going to give you an example. In Michigan, that number in Michigan was about four and a half percent in that previous year, which is pretty good. Low, right? The lower, the more confidence the better. But then in ’20, the new one, it was 87%. So huge uncertainty with their own data and they already define it on their website, that this means this. So it’s huge uncertainty. And overall, when you average all of the Midwest, you see that when you go to that previous period and this period, you see that that number is higher, meaning that there’s greater uncertainty this time around. And you know why this comes up? Because they explain this. It’s very interesting, is that some don’t return their survey, right?

Host (08:45):

Sure.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (08:45):

And when they don’t, they have the statistical methods that these statisticians try to predict what would be the number from that. And then their prediction has this estimate that says, “Okay, how much uncertainty is there?” Which is the one I mentioned that it’s greater now, because there’s less people responding. And actually, that was true because the numbers of number of people who actually wrote down the responses in the previous time, 2017, it was 72% responded, but this time around only 62 responded, 62%. So that explains, that may explain, I can only guess that this could be the main cause of this.

Host (09:33):

Sure, sure. You get just not enough of a consistent response to really know where it’s at. But it still is very interesting to get that feedback and try to correlate, whether you’re in the research industry and helping out through research, or whether you’re in pipe production like we are, or others connected to this industry is what does this mean and how do we respond to that need?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (10:09):

Exactly. It is a very useful data. It shows, like you mentioned, it shows the trajectory of the growth of tile drainage and in what areas, and that is important. What areas are getting the greatest growth? Because with that, I’m sure the government can allocate conservation drainage, because that’s what we do. We talk about conservation drainage practices all the time. So if the tile drainage conventional system goes in the ground and the spread distribution of it, then this is the areas we need to talk about control drainage, such a buffer and so on.

Host (10:44):

Sure, sure. And that’s a good lead into where I wanted to go next, was around that conservation drainage topic and what’s happening in Michigan, and what you see, what you’re excited about and what you’re working on right now, and what practices you think have a great future.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (11:07):

The main practice we’re looking at in Michigan is controlled drainage. And we’re looking at it specifically in terms of phosphorus, because we are surrounded by fresh water, the Great Lakes in Michigan. So phosphorus is the number one nutrient that we’re looking at here. Not that we’re not looking at nitrogen, we are looking at nitrogen too, but phosphorus is the number one. So we are looking at basically, looking at how effective controlled drainage is in reducing phosphorus loss from the farm. And we are seeing, when we started that project, we had higher expectation of reduction, but we are seeing about 20%, which is still useful and good number to reduce phosphorus loss.

(11:54):

So we are happy, but we are seeing a lot of variability, because any conservation drainage practice, it could be saturated buffers, it could be controlled drainage, bio-reactors. Specifically controlled drainage, it is variable depending on the weather. Distribution of rainfall, it rains in springtime, it’s drier summertime, what if things swap? And it’s so variable. So we get a really variable response of phosphorus performance with controlled drainage. One year it’s not doing much, but another year is doing great. Another year is again doing not much. So it varies. But on average, the bottom line was that on average it’s doing about 20% up to now.

Host (12:38):

Sure, sure. So you’re probably not in Michigan, there’s probably not a huge practice around saturated buffers or bio-reactors, just because of the fact that that’s really more focused on nitrate than phosphorus. But that would be my guess. But is that statement true? And do those two practices work with phosphorus also, or is that just really focused on nitrate?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (13:08):

You are right. Saturated buffers and bio-reactors were primarily designed for nitrate. That’s right. We are not looking at what you practice. They’re not popular because of the focus on phosphorus. You’re right again, on that one. Similarly saturated buffers, I can’t say about saturated buffers. Saturated buffers, there are some going in, but there’s more emphasis on controlled drainage obviously. But one of the cool things about saturated buffers is that we’re looking, this is one of our research experiments here in Michigan, the saturated buffer, typically in some cases, if you notice, they use these multiple chamber controlled structures for saturated buffers. And we are seeing that this upstream chamber that allows for controlled drainage actually is good for controlled drainage. And then, there’s a bonus saturated buffer that comes in the middle chamber. So we are seeing some of that, which we are excited about.

Host (14:10):

And are you doing most of your controlled drainage practices in the eastern area of Michigan, where the land is flatter and easier to put that practice on?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (14:26):

Exactly. The control drainage is in southeast Michigan. It’s in the river raising watershed, flows into Lake Erie. That’s the number one hot spot for algal blooms. So it is in the landscape and it is in a very flat landscape. Relatively flat, I would say.

Host (14:45):

Yeah. Good, good. And do you have some of these practices that you’re seeing the 20% reduction, but at what time will some of these projects be closed out, and you can really look at the whole history of it?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (15:02):

Yeah. So looking at the timeline, we have about a year and six months to go to monitor that. Another important thing for water quality, anybody doing anything with drainage and water really, I gave a little bit of hint about this variability and the weather, is that long-term is key in doing this kind of, just answering the questions about conservation drainage. If we do just one year and it’s a weird dry in non-growing season and then growing season is wet, then we’re getting something just out of normal. But that’s why we’ve got to do many years and we are on route to do our fifth year next year. So it’ll be a long term project, because once you capture all the variability, then we can average those and have an understanding of over the long term, this is what it does, rather than doing one or two years, and finding these odd years that don’t make sense.

Host (15:59):

You can take those out. And I’m going to just switch gears here, because I was thinking, and I kind of want to ask this question and see what kind of changes there may have been, but how long have you been at Michigan State?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (16:15):

I have been here a little over seven years now.

Host (16:19):

So that’s perfect timing for what my question around COVID and how have you seen things change with students from before the COVID pandemic to today, and how they think about their careers, and think about a career within agriculture and research, or even just in the mainstream agricultural area?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (16:46):

I would say these days, our students, my students, they’re really excited about seeing how variability in the rainfall throughout the season effects drainage, because that’s a really big question we’re looking at, because we’re getting drier summers and climate scientists are predicting the summers are going to get drier, and then the rain is changing distribution. So instead of coming at this even throughout the year, now it’s coming through the non-growing season. So we’re looking at some of those, they’re very excited. One of them left, found a job working at MIT, because he had some climate stuff.

(17:33):

So it’s because there’s so much need on that. It’s not just water. All parts of society are affected by these climate disruptions we call them. And it’s important to see what’s going to happen, so we can actually have some idea and plan a little bit. And if, for example, in drainage that we work on, if there’s something that we need to know, let’s say there is going to be more need for sub-irrigation in the future, then we need to start planning and looking at those yield benefits. If we are going to provide water for the crop in June, July, August, then we need to know how much percentages can we get increasing yield, and also do some economic analysis beforehand, and then use that data to inform policymaking and do field experiments actually after that.

Host (18:21):

Yes, yes. And interesting answer, I appreciate the answer from the standpoint of what’s happening, because I do believe that it’s a place we need more and more people thinking about, as our climate changes and as we get more rainfall some years, and then it feels like things are going more extremes, we’re getting longer periods of wet and longer periods of dry, both of which affect our water quality in our agricultural area. So that’s pleasing to me to hear that we have people thinking about that, that are younger and getting into that field. So glad I asked the question. I appreciate your time today and what you bring to our industry and kind of wanted to let you have the last word here on The Water Table. And is there anything you want to share with our listeners that you think would be informative and educational for them?

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (19:21):

So if you fall interested in saturated buffers and controlled drainage, in our first phase of project, we are making a decision support tool to be able to design saturated buffers and quantify the nitrogen removal benefits based on site specific properties. It’s like, I’m sure the viewers have used the web source survey from NRCS. We’re developing something similar where you can zoom in on your own form, specific form, you can get an estimate of saturated buffer performance, because we’re moving away, we’re trying to move away from this one size fits all solution, because one form is different from another form. That’s the saturated buffer, it’s coming up. And then, hopefully we are working on making a second tool for control drainage. That is really one of the top practices that has been going in the ground in the Midwest. So having both of those to help people, design them, put them in ground, has to see how useful it is in their own backyard on their own farm.

Host (20:30):

Yes. Yeah, I appreciate that and appreciate what you do for the industry. So, thank you Dr. Ghane for joining us today on The Water Table, and we’d like to stay in touch and hear what’s going on at Michigan State, and in your world of biosystem and agricultural engineering.

Dr. Ehsan Ghane (20:50):

Thank you for having me.

Podcast Episode 105

Is Tile Drainage Decreasing, Or Do Numbers Sometimes Lie?

Episode 105 | 21 min

With Guest:

Listen Now

Guest Bio

Transcript

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Podcast Episode 105

Is Tile Drainage Decreasing, Or Do Numbers Sometimes Lie?

Episode 105 | 21 min

With Guest:

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Guest Bio

Transcript

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